The Science of Trauma with MC McDonald

In this episode, Lumia Coaching instructors John Kim and MC McDonald discuss the definition of trauma, and life coaching around trauma.

The Everything Life Coaching Podcast, featuring Lumia Coaching founders John Kim and Noelle Cordeaux, is a deep dive into the experience and business of being a life coach. Subscribe to get new episodes weekly!

A conversation with Lumia Coaching instructor, MC McDonald

Lumia instructor MC McDonald, PhD

MaryCatherine (MC) McDonald is a Ph.D. and a certified life coach. She has been researching, teaching, and coaching about trauma for her entire career. She has written two books and several journal articles on grief, trauma, and traumatic memory. As a life coach, MC has worked with people through all sorts of life experiences - combat, sexual assault, childhood trauma, death of a loved one, relationship abuse, infidelity, career transitions, gender identity issues, family dynamics, divorce, coping with mental illness diagnosis, and so on. In all of her work, she is committed to understanding trauma more deeply and demystifying both the symptoms of trauma and the healing process.

To learn more about MC's practice, you can visit her website https://alchemycoaching.life/

What does MC teach in the Lumia coach training program? 

Essentials class: Understanding Trauma

Episode Transcript

John: Hey guys, what’s up? I’m super excited for this episode because it’s the first episode that I’m going to be interviewing one of our catalyst instructors. This person and I go way back and we’re gonna to talk about trauma — everything about trauma. I know very little about trauma so that’s why I am bringing Mary Catherine McDonald on board. MC, I’ve never called you that.

MC: I know, it’s really weird.

John: Alright, let’s stick to MC. So let’s start with this — I want you to give us your definition of trauma which I love and then once you do that, then we’ll kind of put a bookmark there and talk about how we met, what you’re up to, and all that kind of stuff.

MC: Sure, yes. So my definition of trauma — I stole, “ha ha ha”, from a clinician who is actually also based in L.A. ‘cause all good things are in L.A. and his name is Robert Stolorow. And his definition is that trauma — this is very different than the sort of clinical definition usually is.

John: Yeah. That’s why I love about it. That’s why I want you to tell me your definition or this definition.

MC: I can talk about sort of the way that it’s different in a second, but basically it’s very simple. He just says, any experience that is unbearable affect that lacks relational home.

John: I like that. It’s a little abstract. I like the lacks relational home.

MC: Yeah and so when he says unbearable affect, he just means anytime you have inexperienced — where you have an unbearable sort of emotional load that comes with that experience so you just can’t deal with whatever that is. And then coupled with that — ‘cause we’re sort of overwhelmed emotionally all the time or a lot of the time — you don’t have anyone that you can sort of bring it to who can relate with you about that in a really deep way.

John: So guys, MC is our trauma expert and she teaches one of the classes in the Catalyst Intensive. And her classes, of course about trauma — that’s what she specializes in. You know, I also don’t want to just put that hat on you ‘cause you do so much more and you can coach anything. But trauma is kind of your go-to, right?

MC: It is, yeah. So going back to the definition just for a second because I think we’re all traumatized and I think that one of the things that the clinical definition which is more event based so we’ve served classically looked at trauma based on the type of event that you’ve gone through. So people who have gone through combat, for example, or people who have had a sexual assault or people who have had a traumatic car accident or something like that are people who sort of count as people who can be traumatized.

John: Right and I think most people think when we hear trauma, we think either sexual assault or military.

MC: Right, and those are certainly traumatic. No doubt, for sure. But there are sort of echoes of those experiences in all of our lives and I think we really miss something when we miss out on the ways that we have been traumatized in our own lives. We miss sort of a deep understanding of our own behaviour and our own fears and what might be holding us back in relationships so I think that it really is foundational for most, if not all people.

John: Yeah. I just had a thought ‘cause I coach a lot of people with relationships. When you have trauma in relationships, I think that stove gets really hot and then we become afraid. And we’re not able to love hard because of the trauma and us not wanting to go near it. So you got to work through the trauma to kind of swing pass the breakers and hit the calm again.

MC: Right, and that’s a perfect example. So let’s say you have a relationship and somebody betrays you, right? So you —

John: Or someone cheats on you, breaks your heart, etc.

MC: Right, so you have an unbearable emotion and who do you want to go to? The person that you love who just betrayed you. So you can’t have a relational home because that person just betrayed you, boom! There’s a trauma. So what do you do with that? And yeah, I think it’s just — it’s really hard to process those things and then so we bring them into our next relationships, and bring them to our friendships, and then — and we don’t really notice sort of how those little traumas or traumas — lower case T, are impacting our lives.

John: Yeah. And so guys, that’s what we’re gonna be to talking about today. Okay so let’s put a bookmark there and that’s our teaser. Hopefully people are now interested in this conversation.

MC: Yeah.

John: Let’s like jump into our time machine because you and Noelle we’re pretty much the first ones, in a way, started this thing about seven/eight years ago? So tell us how you met me and all of that in your journey as a life coach and everything.

MC: So this is really funny. I think I found your original Angry Therapist Tumblr in like 2008 or 2009 because somebody retweeted something on Twitter. And then I started following it on Tumblr and then you had like a call for interns? Like you wanted people to be — I have no idea what we we’re doing, but you had a call for interns. And so there’s like a tree involved [inaudible]?

John: Oh, is it a treehouse?

MC: Yes, a treehouse.

John: Right. So you know what’s interesting, I used to call it the treehouse and it was kind of a safe space for — but that treehouse idea evolved into now the giant closed Facebook group, which is called “This Is Your Tribe” and there’s like 6000 people in there.

MC: Which is freaking awesome. If you’re not in there, you should be.

John: Yeah but the treehouse was a group log on Tumblr, right? We were just like 20 of us or 10 of us.

MC: And it was super awesome. I still am friends with some of those people like on Instagram and stuff that I met in there, which is crazy. This is like the only Internet thing that I’ve ever done where you meet people on the Internet. [inaudible phrase] Then I was kinda going through crisis about grad school and whether or not I want to finish my PhD and what was going on. So I did a  session with you about like what the hell is going on with my life. Can we swear in this podcast?

John: Of course.

MC: Okay.

John: You could swear, you could be naked, whatever you want to do.

MC: Nobody wants that. And I just remember talking to you and you just kinda like cut right through the bulls**t, and you were just like “What do you want to do?” And it was just such a real conversation and I thought like, “Man, this doesn’t happen enough in the world.” And I’ve been in therapy — it’s not like I hadn’t been in therapy before, but there’s just something about the coaching thing that was so much more like alive and I just got super inspired by it. So simultaneously, I was studying trauma and writing about trauma in my research, and so I kinda put those two together slowly and started coaching and all that stuff. But I think the original email is from like 2009 or something crazy.

John: Amazing. And I want to remind you guys if you’re listening, ‘cause we have life coaches who listen to this podcast and then we have everyone else. And if you’re a life coach — so this session that MC is talking about, I don’t even remember it. I seriously didn’t even know that I had a session with her. But that’s the power of planting seeds, that’s the power of collisions, that’s the power of not knowing what your words or the space that you hold for someone — the impact it’s gonna have. So like for MC, and having a session with me and then being empowered and excited about this idea of life coaching right through the process. And then her now being a life coach — being a life coach among many things, she also teaches and everything else. And I’m completely oblivious to that. So if you’re a life coach, I just want you to know that you’ll never know what kind of impact you have on the other side.

MC: Oh my god, especially like those one-off people — because it was not that it was like a one-off thing [inaudible] been talking for years and things. But like, that session — that was the only “session” that we had. But I remember you saying something like, “I see something in you, I think you’d make a great coach.” And I could tell that you weren’t just like bulls**tting me, you actually believed that?

John: Oh absolutely. And it was true.

MC: And that moment of like — I just needed that so much in that moment, like somebody believing in me. That was life-changing, like 1,000%. So you never know like sometimes you have a session with somebody and then you don’t talk to them again and you’re kind of like, What happened? I think we assume like, “Oh, okay. I didn’t do a good job.” But sometimes it’s the absolute opposite — that you said the exact right thing at the exact right time, and that’s all that person needed.

John: Yeah, and like I say — even today, I’ve had thousands of sessions. If I’d have one session with someone and they don’t return, the first thing I think is, “Oh they didn’t get anything out of it, or it was me, or I didn’t do a good job.” But that may not be the case at all.

MC: Yeah, yeah. It could be that it was [inaudible].

John: Yeah. They got what they needed and that’s that.

MC: Yeah.

John: So, from there, you keep going with your story. You’re also in school —

MC: So I was also in school, and so I ultimately decided to kind of do both. So I started coaching bit by bit — I had my first client kind of right away, which was like a little scary but you just kind of jump right in. I think that’s the best way to do it. And then finished my PhD and then started working together with everybody building the course and things like that. Now I teach part of the course and still have been coaching all along.

John: Alright, so let’s talk a little bit about trauma. So you have us the definition, which is great. So let me ask you this — the big question, I guess, for life coaches is “What do you do once you have a client who has had some trauma?” You want to kind of go there? Or you want to talk about — you want to back up and talk more about trauma, misconceptions, etc.

MC: I think I to talk about kind of going there with “what do you do when you have a client that comes to a trauma” because I think a lot of people get really freaked out.

John: Yeah, of course. And they think it’s super clinical and they just run away from it.

MC: Yeah. The thing that I really love about that definition — that trauma’s unbearable affect that lacks relational home — is that it provides, within that definition, a solution. Right? So all we need to do as life coaches is provide that relational home.

John: Yeah. And so what does that look like?

MC: I’m writing about this right now, so I’m trying to flush this out. So I call it needing someone in the overwhelm. And so what do I mean by that? I like that phrase. What does it mean? You have to kinda dive in with somebody. So somebody comes to you and there’s an issue and they’ve got this trauma, this horrible relationship gone wrong, or this situation at work, or a bad childhood, or whatever — and they’re kind of revealing it to you. Your job is not to fix it. You can’t fix it. Your job is not to figure it out. It’s not to unravel it. It’s not any of that. All you have to do —

John: And I think [inaudible] — I think a lot of people make that mistake is instantly trying to figure out where the trauma came from.

MC: What do you mean?

John: Like figuring it out, trying to figure out, trying to put pieces together, trying to — and that you’re saying that’s not the way to go.

MC: Yeah, no. Yeah. It’s just meeting someone in that moment and saying, “Okay, what are you feeling? What does that feel like? How do you find that in your everyday life? How is that impacting you?” And then really feeling that with them, resonating with them in that moment. Because what trauma does is that it tricks you, it’s like an abusive relationship. It tricks you into thinking that you’re isolated from the rest of the world, but you’re not. And so the thing that the life coach can do that’s so empowering is to show you, to teach you, to reteach you that you’re not alone. And no matter what you’re experiencing and no matter what you’re feeling about it and however isolated you feel, someone can be there with you in that.

John: Right.

MC: And that can be — you don’t have to have experienced the specific thing. If you talk about how — if we’re in a session and you say your divorce was really traumatic or if I’m giving the feeling like your divorce was traumatic, I don’t have to have been divorced to understand what that might feel like. Right?

John: Right.

MC: I can understand what loss is like, I can understand what disappointment is like, or betrayal, or whatever. You know, I’m putting all these things on here, I don’t actually know about it at all. But you can resonate with someone without having gone through that. That’s another misconception — I think people think like, “Well, I’m not a combat vet, so I can’t talk to a combat veteran.” You know what I mean? You know pain and loss and fear. So you can talk to them.

John: Okay, so let me ask you this. What does it look like to meet them there? If we’re talking about — like if I was going through a breakup and it was very traumatic or if it was abusive, and you’re coaching me. How do you meet me in that space? How do you — you know.

MC: Yeah. So this is the tricky part, this is hard to define. You, I think, try to resonate with them as much as you can. I’m trying to think of an example of when this has happened in a session so I can like —

John: So, practicing empathy?

MC: Yeah, empathy. You know [inaudible phrase] active listening, and practicing empathy. Showing — like just go there with them. Go into the feeling. Don’t worry about what you’re going to say. Don’t worry about saying the right thing. Just literally imagine yourself in their experience.

John: Yeah. And you know what, I think a lot of life coaches — they’re afraid of doing that because they don’t think that that’s a solution. It feels like, “Okay, if I just meet them there, that’s not enough. What exactly am I doing just by being empathetic? That’s not enough.”

MC: Yeah. Right. No, but it’s a start. And then once they see that they’re not alone, then you can start working on getting out of that room. I think about the — gosh I think it’s in the Odyssey, where like Odysseus goes to hell for his wife. You go down there with them and the point is not that you’re going to hell. The point is that you become like a conduit back to earth. They see in you the compassion that they can’t give themselves, or they see in you the empathy they can’t give themselves, or the forgiveness they can’t give themselves. And then they can start trusting you, and then they can start trusting other people, and then they can start trusting themselves.

John: Right. So you become the rope —

MC: Yeah, exactly.

John: — that they pull themselves out of.

MC: Exactly. And it’s just by like modeling. And there’s actually like — so there’s neurology behind that. That’s mere neurons at work. You’re showing them like what they can’t do in their own brain.

John: Right.

MC: If you can’t show yourself compassion, but if I am compassionate toward you, then you’re like, “Oh, wait a minute.” Right?

John: Yeah. And you know what’s interesting is what you’re talking about isn’t just for trauma. That’s just a great session in general.

MC: Yeah.

John: You know, meeting them there and injecting hope or mirroring all that stuff.

MC: Or just providing a different perspective or hearing what they’re saying. Someone’s repeated a word more than once, I always pay attention to that ‘cause someone in their life is not listening to that word.

John: Yeah.

MC: Yeah. Yeah.

John: What do you think are — I think most people, you know what, I think just ‘cause no one enters adulthood unscarred, I think that we all have trauma.

MC: Yeah, for sure.

John: I mean, there’s no way you can’t have some form of trauma living on [inaudible]. Right?

MC: Yeah. Yup. Yeah.

John: So it’s just a matter of like how deep. So how do we know when to start seeking help for something that [inaudible phrase]. Like what are some signs?

MC: You have to be kind of vigilant. It’s funny, I always tell this story when I’m teaching class that I’ve been studying this since — years. I’ve been studying trauma a year. And this is what I research every day.

John: Yeah. And you know what, that’s what makes you such a badass and a go-to is that your a forefront of this. You’re not just someone that like took a trauma course, but this is your —

MC: This is my thing. This is my jam.

John: Yeah, I love it. That’s what’s exciting.

MC: But like, so you think that I would know a thing. Like about my own life, my own trauma. But I had this year where I had chronic migraines —

John: Oh, I remember.

MC: Yeah. And I wanted to die. I couldn't figure out what was going on. I couldn’t see. It was horrible. I was in unspeakable pain. It was just the worst. I was creating content for — I don’t think the Catalyst Course now — but some workbook for something before we did this. And I was like kind of — I had built these little activities, and I was trying out the activities to kinda see if they made sense and worked ‘cause I was just kinda making this stuff up on the fly. And I was thinking like — and I realized that that had been a traumatic year. And that I had started to engage in all these like avoidant behaviors and all these weird behaviors, and I was super anxious all the time, I was thinking about migraines all the time. And I hadn’t realized it — like I had this trauma I did not know about. That was not part of my conscious — and I study trauma.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

MC: So I think it’s kinda hard to know and I think this is a key thing for life coaches to know is that — your clients will always know that they’re traumatized. Like it would be really great if people came in and they were like, “Hey, I have like trauma A, B, and C, and I like to resolve it in the following ways, and here’s how — ” you know, that’s not always how it works. Sometimes people don’t know what’s going on. They just can’t keep a job or their relationships have like all these f****d up patterns, and they can’t figure out why. I think there’s a lot of misdiagnosis about trauma — people get diagnosed with personality disorders, but it’s actually trauma-based. And so how do you know when you need help? I think if you’re recognizing in yourself that you have an experience in your life that is impacting your daily behavior in any way, like if you are frequently thinking about something, if you’re avoiding something frequently, those are signs that you might want to work something out. You might wanna try to talk to somebody about it. And again, the symptoms are really varied — so people can have all sorts of different symptoms. And some of the symptoms are really scary, and I think this is a super important thing to say. The symptoms of PTSD can make you feel like you’re crazy, and so a lot of people don’t seek help because they think they’re gonna get admitted, because they think that they’re like losing their minds. So like, dissociative episodes where you feel like you’re out of your body, or you can really like account for time, or you feel like you’re watching your life from a film, or you kinda feel like you’re floating above your body, or anything like that — that’s really f***ing scary.

John: Yeah, of course.

MC: But, what your body is doing is trying to protect you. Because you have all that overwhelm, you have all this excess of emotion, and that then leads to an excess of stress hormone coursing through your body. And there’s no way to deal with it. So your body shuts off, your mind shuts off. ‘Cause it’s trying to like check out, ‘cause it knows you can’t handle it — which is actually really cool. But if you’re having the symptoms — one, it’s totally normal and two, you don’t have to live with those symptoms forever. Those are trauma symptoms and you can figure those out. Some people don’t realize that. They might dissociate everytime they get into an argument and not realize that’s because they had an abusive childhood.

John: Yeah.

MC: So that was a super long complicated answer.

John: No, but that’s great. I think it’s helpful. So if you guys — if something in your life is happening or when you feel that you’re dissociating or having kind of an out-of-body experience, maybe there’s some trauma there. Maybe there are things that need to be — would you say the word is “heal”? Can you heal from trauma? Or is it more of just learning how to cope with it?

MC: 1,000% you can heal. 1,000%. Yeah.

John: Okay, so healing from trauma — you’re a whole person again.

MC: Yeah. It doesn’t ever — I think healing is a funny thing, right. The first time I ever called a therapist — my dad had just died six months ago, and I had always like weird coping mechanisms which mostly involved being a workaholic. And I started having panic attacks so badly that I couldn’t go to work, I could go to work but I had to deal with weird things to get to work ‘cause I was afraid of the subway and all those crazy stuff. So I called a therapist and I was like, “You know, I’m having these panic attacks and it’s not acceptable because I need to go to work and this is not an acceptable way to live, and so I need you to help me manage them. So can you do that? That’d be great.” And she was kind of like — she told me much later that that was kind of funny because that’s not really how it works. You don’t just like, fix it.

John: Right.

MC: It doesn’t go away. Like you learn how to incorporate it into your life, but healing is possible. And I think the thing that’s really cool about trauma is that — this is another misconception, we’re into the misconception thing. This is my aim in in life — if I do one thing, this is what I wanna teach the world, is that people think that trauma comes from a place of weakness. It’s a disorder if [inaudible] PTSD or if you’re traumatized, that means you’re weak. But trauma response comes from survival, it comes from a survival technique. All of these coping mechanisms are ways of keeping you alive and healthy. So if you have these symptoms, it’s not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of strength. And people who have been traumatized and moved on through trauma — once they heal, are not only stronger because of it, and I’m not just putting a silver lining on it, they are more attuned to other people’s emotions, they are more compassionate, they are more sensitive, they see the world more vividly. So it’s not like we wanna say trauma’s a good thing, right? But when you heal, you heal — in technicolor. You know what I mean?

John: Yeah, I love that. And you know what, I heard once that the people who have gone through the most trauma are the most sympathetic.

MC: Yeah, for sure.

John: So why is that? Is it that the wiring is different? What makes them more empathetic than someone who hasn’t gone through trauma.

MC: I think they just see, they just get it. It’s a different perspective. I mean there’s neurobiology that goes into it for sure, but it’s hard to judge people when you’ve gone through s**t and then — you know.

John: I think this is why I called you the Brené Brown of trauma. And this is what she says about vulnerability — the world seeing it as a weakness, and her flipping it and proving that it’s actually a strength. And I think the world — there’s a lot of stigma behind trauma, it’s embarrassing, there’s shame behind it. And if you’ve been through trauma — a good example of this is sexual assault. If you’ve been raped — that is such a shame-filled, I mean it’s a dark secret and it’s not something that you announce or tell people. So by saying that trauma is actually an empowering thing or that trauma’s actually a strength and it’s your body protecting yourself — reframing it that way I think is very helpful.

MC: Yeah. I think it’s really crucial. Like that’s my thing, I wanna teach the world that. ‘Cause we’ve had it wrong — we’ve been wrong about things before. We thought that world was flat, we’re wrong. We think that trauma’s weakness, we’re wrong. It’s wrong.

John: You need to do a TED Talk, MC.

MC: I would die.

John: No, you do. I mean, I wanna do one too, but you have such a potent specific niche that I think the world needs to hear.

MC: I would love that.

John: You wouldn’t die. Why would you die? You would not die, you’d kill it, you’d crush it.

MC: I don’t know.

John: So what are some things that you are passionate about these days? What is going on in your life? Just teaching full-time? And what are some of the things that you’re researching and studying?

MC: So I’m writing a book right now, which is like a little scary to say. But it’s about rethinking — it’s about this, it’s about rethinking trauma. And so kind of going back and rewriting the history of trauma and kind of trying to get this right.

John: What an important book. I love that.

MC: Yeah. I hope it gets — I hope somebody picks it up. We’ll see.

John: They will.

MC: I’m working — the proposal right now is kind of intense. So I’m doing that and I’m super excited about it. And it’s funny — it’s weird being a salesperson for your own stuff. Because when you really believe in something but then you have to like put it in that sales pitchy kind of way, it’s really weird. [inaudible phrase] But it always feels insincere, you know what I mean? So I’m doing that and I’m doing two other things. I have a study that I just finished on veteran reintegration that was pretty huge, we got over 200 participants across the country — kind of talking about their reintegration experience and we had all the data analyzed. So we’re writing that up right now, and we wanna get that out so that we can do a bigger study and get some kind of funding from the government, and kind of again get this idea out there that we need to rethink sort of what this looks like. Because everytime we have a war, we have a bunch of people coming back and we don’t really treat them the way that we should.

John: Yeah, which is huge. And that population is just — ‘cause there’s so many people that are still hiding, that are underneath the rock, you know.

MC: Oh, and it’s so tragic. Like there’s just — yeah.

John: Reframing and giving people new definitions, and showing them different perspective brings them out from underneath the rock. And I love doing that.

MC: Yup. Right. And empowering them, yeah. And then the other study that I’m doing is a smaller one, which is on the body and learning how to sort of come home to the body — is one of the main things that happens in any kind of traumatic experience, but especially like sexual assault and combat trauma. But really any trauma — is this like sort of divide that happens between the mind and the body, and you stop being able to trust your body because you start having all these panic symptoms. So —

John: It’s funny you labeled that the smaller one. That’s actually the biggest one, ‘cause it’s the most commercial. I mean that’s the one that throws the biggest [inaudible] ‘cause now you’re talking about like wellness and yoga and meditation. Like, you know, the whole body and mind connection.

MC: Oh, yeah. I just said smaller ‘cause I got less money for it.

John: That doesn’t mean it’s smaller.

MC: Less people are involved.

John: Right. I think all three of those — they’re great [flags?] to [it?]. I love it.

MC: Yeah. And I kinda hope like to be talking about — I wanna take these things, I’m using combat trauma as a platform for a couple of reasons. And I eventually wanna talk about trauma sort of in general ‘cause I think that there’s a lot of coalition building that can happen between traumatized populations. And also, I think that we can talk about trauma from the perspective or the events, but I think we should also talk about it from the perspective of a person — and I think a lot of different kinds of experiences can be traumatic. And it’s important to really get that message out as well because people are traumatized and they’re not giving help for it. And that’s tragic.

John: I think you’re doing important work, and I love seeing your journey, and I’m really proud of you.

MC: Thank you!

John: Yeah. And I can’t wait to — I mean, it’s people like MC that really give me fuel and that want to grow SHFT, and just try to get traction and more eyes so we could launch you out of a cannon and get you out there talking or writing books or doing whatever. I really believe that — there’s a lot of important stuff that our instructors have to say or different ways in or the way they do something. And I’m just one example that just can open up, just different way of living.

MC: For sure. It’s really cool. I think you’ve built such a — you know how like, different corporations and things have personalities. And I think that people that come to SHFT are all really badass and awesome. Everytime I meet someone or talk to someone like, “Oh man, you guys are so cool!”

John: Yeah. And I love that we come as we are, I love that we’re unpolished, I love that — yeah, all that stuff. I love who we track. And they’re actually the “normal people” that are just kind of sick of the nine to five or that want to coach or help other people or just change their own lives in some way.

MC: Yeah, for sure.

John: Alright, so where can people find you? Obviously they could find you on the SHFT site. Also guys, MC writes and she writes articles for a blog.

MC: Yeah I’m writing one right now on triggers. That’s gonna be kinda huge for me and hopefully huge for other people.

John: Yeah so look out for her on the SHFT platform. Where can they find — are you active on social media or not so much?

MC: Uhm I am. I have catalyst MC something on Facebook and I’m on Instagram.  

John: Do you have a personal account on Instagram or is it about trauma? What’s your Instagram handle?

MC: My Instagram is just a personal one but people can follow me there if they want. What is my handle? Who knows.

John: Is handle a 1980s type of — I feel like we’re [inaudible] drugs. We’re on CB. What is your handle?

MC: What else would it be called?

John: What do they call ‘em now? Your IG username? I don’t know what its called.

MC: Kids these days, I can’t keep up.

John: I’m sorry. What is your username on Instagram?

MC: I’m trying to find [inaudible]

John: Oh my god MC, you don’t even know?

MC: Why would I know my own handle?

John: For when you’re on podcast and you wanna tell people where to find you.

MC: Okay it’s MCYMcD

John: MCYMcD?

MC: Yes.

John: Spell it.

MC: Like M-C-Y-M-C-D

John: Right, easy. So I think you should put a lot more of this stuff on your Instagram. Do you separate it? Do you not on your personal Instagram put the stuff you are passionate about like trauma, writings, and videos?

MC: No but I certainly will.

John: You should.

MC: Instagram is personal but it’s also where I put things I’m inspired by. So poetry..

John: I think you should make videos. I think you should do Instagram stories. I think you should snap — you know how I like write on notes about trauma, you’re also a writer. I think you should use Instagram to spread your message and to push out content about trauma — that’s amazing. Where else could you find that? Instagram is all like pretty people posing in front of Ferraris, it’s stupid.

MC: But there’s some real s**t on there. I love Instagram.

John: Right there are some real s**t and so I think you have value. I think you have so much to offer. Not that there’s anything wrong with showing your personal life.

MC: No but yeah.

John: Don’t be afraid to put where you’re passionate about on.

MC: Yeah. I’m putting something different out there. I think —  sets you up as a separate voice for people.

John: Yes or make a brand new account and make it about trauma. I really think that could be very popular. Alright guys, thanks for joining us and MC, thank you for the dialogue and keep doing what you do.

MC: Thank you so much. This was so fun.

John: Alright guys, be well.

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